On Friday, May 24, Chicago Thinker managing editor Shubh Malde spoke to former Vice President Mike Pence with others from the Student Journalism Association at The Fund for American Studies (TFAS). The conversation covered a wide range of topics, from domestic and foreign affairs to more personal matters. Below is the full transcript, which has been lightly edited for brevity.
It is a few minutes before the silence breaks. The meeting room fills quickly and the sense of anticipation is equally private and palpable. It is not every day that one gets to speak to a former vice president, not least one who could have a bigger say in America’s future than anyone else over the next six months.
After a brief introduction, we are greeted by a familiar, sonorous voice: “It’s good to be with you today.” This was the man who once stood atop the free world; the vice president of the most polarizing administration in living memory and the most potent nemesis of Donald Trump today.
Mike Pence, who despite being out of front-line politics for the first time in 23 years maintains a stately image, is jovial as he trumpets his state’s great sporting event, the Indianapolis 500, and jocularly taunts Celtics fans amidst their (ultimately anticlimactic) showdown with the Pacers. For a man so publicly pessimistic about the choice on offer at this year’s presidential election, his opening remarks brim with hope as he encourages us to “press on… boldly and with confidence.” He is undeniably charming, but he seems to be finished with politics.
Stern critics would say this was a done deal before he ended his presidential campaign (which even if looked upon bullishly, lacked verve if not integrity) in October last year. “I’m a Christian, a conservative, and a Republican. In that order,” Pence tells us. One gets the impression, these days, that the latter is a very distant third, though not by his choosing; he would say his party deserted him, not he it.
When questioned on his support for Trump, Pence comments on observing his former boss “shy away from the right to life, say we’re not going to deal with reforms to tackle the national debt, and… some around him embracing this new Republican isolationism.” He is similarly frank in his assessment, concluding, “I cannot endorse those principles.” Although Pence waits in the wings for now, we may find that, like Banquo, his most fateful act is yet to come.
It is of little surprise that now in his moment of disillusionment, the former vice president’s faith looms larger than ever. Though a seemingly growing source of solace, it undeniably informs his sense of duty. Discussing the events of January 6, for example, Pence reaffirms, “I’ll always believe that I did my duty that day, to support and defend the Constitution by God’s grace.”
The frequency with which Pence, an evangelical Christian who converted from Catholicism in college, ornaments his sentences with blessings and prayers verges on parody. With each sacred utterance, that mystic force that has accompanied American politics since the Mayflower hangs heavier and heavier.
Throughout the conversation, Pence radiates a mixture of polish and candor. At once, he feels like a man relieved of some cumbersome load. Probed on domestic affairs, his reflections are often detached from their subject. On geopolitics, he is informed as much by religion as by realpolitik and history, though is nevertheless laudable in his Reagan-esque belief in freedom beyond American shores.
His method in no way lacks the trademark gloss once deployed to smooth over the unorthodoxy of the 45th president and with a light quip or turn of phrase an inexperienced inquisitor would be forgiven for losing sight of his goal. Moreover, in each response he recalls each questioner’s name and repeats it several times, so one never feels like an imposter.
As he speaks, the famous soliloquy of Shakespeare’s Jacques comes to mind. Though thirteen years Trump’s junior, it is Pence who now enters the fifth age “full of wise saws and modern instances,” while the former president still “seek[s] the bubble reputation” in the fourth. Before we conclude, Pence issues a final blessing: “Keep faith in God who I think ever had his hand on this great nation. God bless you all.” His salutations are sweet, but I am left with the urge to shake this power-wielding guy out of his loftiness and into action.
Many thanks must go to TFAS for organizing the conversation. * The views expressed in this article solely represent the views of the author, not the views of the Chicago Thinker.
Shubh Malde: Whether in Ukraine, the Middle East, China, or Sudan to take just a few notable examples, freedom worldwide is in a precarious place. President Reagan, whom you admire, said in his 1982 Westminster address that “we must be staunch in our conviction that freedom is not the sole prerogative of a lucky few, but the inalienable and universal rights of human beings.” Can there ever be too great a price to pay for fostering that freedom beyond American shores?
Vice President Pence: I’m someone that [sic] believes America is the leader of the free world. When we see authoritarian regimes seek to redraw international lines by force, when we see the kind of brutality of the Russian military in Eastern Europe, when we see China’s provocations in the Asia Pacific, when we see the unspeakable violence that took place on October 7 at the hands of Hamas, I believe we have an obligation. I know there are some in my party that have taken a different view. Some of the loudest voices inside and outside our party took a different view, particularly with regard to Ukraine, but I never did. And I champion that cause.
One of the other things Reagan said was that it isn’t that we go make the fight on our own. Reagan coined in his 1984 State of the Union address what came to be known as the Reagan Doctrine, which was simply this: “If you’re willing to fight the communists in your country, with your soldiers, we’ll give you the means to fight them there so we don’t have to fight them.” That was always my rationale. Then I explained to policymakers and I spoke about it in my campaign last year with the American people. And I couldn’t be more proud of speaker Mike Johnson, and Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill have finally found a way to get together and renew the support for Ukraine, for Israel, for Taiwan.
So I think America’s aspiration is we want to be an inspiration to the world. We want to live out what it means to be a constitutional republic; to be a democracy; to be an example of freedom. But one of the things I learned when I was vice president [and] met with so many world leaders, including leaders of countries that are hostile to our values, if America is not leading the free world the free world’s not being led. There’s no alternative to America, in the defense of freedom on the planet. And so, I honestly believe this is a time of testing. There was some talk among some in my own party that said that if we renewed support for Ukraine we would set the table for World War Three. Well, I’d suggest they maybe read a history of the 1930s and early 40s. They might find that actually, weakness arouses evil, appeasement is a pathway to conflict, and strength is the pathway to peace. And that’s something President Reagan taught us. It’s something I believe very deeply.
Tori Cook, editor-in-chief of The Beacon (Yale University): My grandfather is a retired Air Force officer who… [took oaths] to defend the Constitution from enemies, foreign and domestic. What do you see as the most pressing domestic enemies facing America today, the things that you see that can rip the country apart from the inside out almost, and what can the American people do to address those?
I think I’d almost rather flip it around… rather than the threat, I would say that’s the hope. Our founders, in a hot summer in 1787, crafted together the Constitution of the United States. It’s adopted two years later and it’s a miracle of history; it fashioned a republic of limited government… I believe the pathway forward in these divided times, is for all of us, just to renew our commitment to keep faith with the principles enshrined in the Constitution of the United States, and the liberties in the Bill of Rights. But also that each of us would understand, and embrace, and support, and defend the principles in the Constitution. And then let’s have our elections. Let’s hash it out. Let’s have our debates. But the common ground in America and it is ground upon which we built the freest and most prosperous nation in the history of the world, is the ideals enshrined in our Declaration and the principles enshrined in the Constitution. So, if your grandfather’s still with us, you’d give him my best.
Zach Gardner, managing editor of the Princeton Tory: The epigraph to your autobiography, which is Jeremiah 29:11… says that the Lord promises hope in a future to those who place their trust in Him. Many young people among us are being told to despair over the future of their country in the current election cycle. Both left and right visions for the country seem to be very pessimistic [and] rooted in everything that is going wrong with the country. What [are] your thoughts on what a vision for political hope looks like and do you think faith is a necessary component of that hope moving forward?
Well, what a wonderful question… and thanks for at least reading the first page of the book. Keep going, keep going…
For me, it just comes down to faith… Jeremiah 29:11 is an ancient promise. It says, “For I know the plans I have for you plans to prosper you and not to harm you plans to give you hope and a future,” and people of faith have clung to those verses for thousands of years, particularly in this country. Through great difficulties and trials throughout our history, people have always claimed faith in God. There’s one other nation in the history of the world that I’m aware of that was founded on a belief that they derive their rights from a Creator God. We are the other. We’re endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights.
But the other part of it is, I have to think you’re right about people in your generation. We’ve got three young people that [sic] are just a few years out of college and grad school themselves, and I get it. If you look at politics today, it can be discouraging, it really can… But I have to tell you, I have incredible faith in the American people. Traveling across this country, as a candidate for president last year, traveling in the years since I left the White House for the foundation I created, my years in office for 20 years, I never failed to be inspired by the American people. Ever.
This country, when you look at the storms that rolled through Iowa last night, and my heart sank and I breathed a prayer for the families that were devastated by those tornadoes. We know an awful lot about those kinds of storms here in Indiana. But I know for a fact to a moral certitude that in all those neighborhoods that were devastated yesterday in Iowa, it’d be hard to find a parking space today. Because people come from all points on the map to help, and to support. I mean, Americans are there for each other. I’ve seen it firsthand. It’s not hyperbole, it’s not a stump speech. I’ve seen the way the people of this country in the current generation stepped forward after 9/11. And you had lines around the block of recruiting stations across this country. I said in my presidential campaign, the American people are the most industrious, generous, principled, patriotic, hardworking people in the world. We’ve just got to have a government as good as our people again. And that’s the aspiration of my life, just to remind people if you want to find hope, look to faith in God and keep your faith in the American people, because they deserve it.
Charlie November, writer at The Wesleyan Argus: In the aftermath of the 2020 election, there were widespread allegations of voter fraud and a significant push for electoral reforms. Can you describe the specific evidence or lack thereof that [has] informed your stance and the integrity of the 2020 election results? And what concrete steps do you believe should be taken to enhance election security without disenfranchising voters?
There’s no question that in the name of COVID, there were a handful of states that changed the rules with regard to mail-in voting and undermined public confidence. As I said, leading up to that fateful day in January 2021 there’s no question that [there] were voting irregularities. There was not then or to this day evidence of the amount of voter fraud that would have changed the outcome of the election. But, we have a process… not only a constitutional framework but also with regard to laws and our courts. And I fully support it… But at the end of the day, once a state under the Constitution certifies an election, those Electoral College votes are sent to the Capitol. And there’s a process for bringing objections and fully supported members bringing objections if they had them, and many did.
But my role under the Constitution was simply to be the presiding officer over a joint session of Congress where we would open and count the electoral votes no more no less than that… One of my favorite Bible verses is the one that says he keeps his oath even when it hurts. I know something about that. Remember, I was on the ballot.
That being said, what needs to be done? I think a lot of it is being done. I’m really proud of the fact that states, notably Georgia and others, have passed significant election reforms. There have been some court decisions, involving a couple of Midwestern states where courts have set right the practice of elections going forward. And I think it’s absolutely essential that we continue to pursue efforts to preserve the one person, one vote principle at the heart of our Republic, and many states have passed significant election reforms. [In] Indiana we went to the Supreme Court with it to require voter ID. The Supreme Court upheld Indiana’s requirement for a picture ID to be presented with your ballot. And to me, that’s an idea whose time has come. Many on the left continue to oppose that for reasons that simply are not grounded in the facts. In Indiana we provide a free ID to anyone that [sic] doesn’t happen to have a driver’s license; we greatly facilitate. Frankly, voter participation has gone up since we adopted voter ID… I think voter ID is a critical approach.
But at the end of the day, the last principle is under the Constitution. States govern elections. This is not a small matter to the founders, it really wasn’t. If you think back at the time of the American founding, there was what’s called a superpower. But there was one other superpower in the world. We just defeated them. There was a concern that if elections were run out of our, our young country’s capital, they would be subject to influence external influence from one country in particular. And so they pushed it out to the states to ensure that the elections would truly be independent and represent the will of the American people. So you can probably tell I’ve thought a lot about this. But for me, all roads just simply lead back to “What does the Constitution say?” And I’ll always believe that I did my duty that day, to support and defend the Constitution by God’s grace.
Reagan Reese, the Pennsylvania Post: Do you have any opinions on who [Trump’s running mate] should be and any comments about the 2024 election?
Being your vice president was the greatest honor of my life. And, while the administration did not end the way I would have hoped it did, right, I’m incredibly proud of that record… For half of [my autobiography, So Help Me God] I wrote about that experience in the White House and what was a good working relationship that the former president and I had over a four-year period. We were friends. He wasn’t just my president, he was my friend… And I’m just as frustrated as most Americans are with the abject failure of the Biden administration. They have literally weakened America, at home and abroad, dismantled our policies at the border, engaged in economic policies that have put a great burden on working families and, of course, their foreign policy has been one instance of weakness and appeasement after another that’s created an environment that’s emboldened the enemies of freedom around the world. The second thing is, I’m staying out of the presidential race and said that I’m not endorsing my old running mate…
…You’re talking about Biden and the kind of failures that we’ve experienced, are you going to support Trump for reelection or not?
When I see the enduring difference the president and I continue to have on the duties that I believe I had on January 6, but also when I see the president taking positions that essentially shy away from the right to life, say we’re not going to deal with the kind of reforms to tackle the national debt, and even when I see some around him embracing this new Republican isolationism, I said that I cannot endorse those principles. But look, every American eligible to vote is entitled to their vote… I’m going to focus the remainder of this year, and in the years ahead on what we’re for. And that’s my foundation in the work that we’re doing. But, in terms of the president’s choice for vice president, I went through that process…
Is there anyone that you had in mind, out of the potential picks?
Well I know, all of them… and that that decision should always simply be grounded in the purpose of that position which, if you read my book, I actually wrote on the mirror at the vice president’s residence: “Be informed, be prepared and be of service.” And it was my prayer every day as vice president. It’s your job as vice president, and you don’t talk about it a lot, but you should always be prepared. In the event that history calls you need to be ready to step in. And so being informed, knowing what you know, at home and abroad, the issues that the country is dealing with, being prepared mentally, physically, spiritually, to accept that responsibility. And then being of service—during our administration, I was always grateful for the way the president engaged me in moving our legislative agenda, telling our story around the country and the world—but to me, those would be the qualifications; someone who could meet those obligations. Because at the end of the day, that’s the purpose.
Jacob Genualdi, editor at the Harvard Salient: Today, as we see, so many Republicans softening their stance on abortion, because they see it as a losing issue. Simply put, are they making a mistake by doing so?
The short answer is yes. I’m pro-life, I don’t apologize for it. Perhaps one of the greatest honors of my life is to have played a small part in the appointment of three of the justices that sent Roe v. Wade to the ash heap of history, where it belongs. It’s really given our country a new beginning for life and the debate has begun.
I always try and make this point is that first, you have to start from the standpoint that in point of fact, the position of the Democratic party today is to support abortion on demand, all the way up to the moment of birth and taxpayer funding of abortion. That position, I would argue, in combination, is supported by maybe 15% of the American public. And so the extremists on the life question are the Democrats. Joe Biden was someone who had historically supported the Hyde Amendment opposing taxpayer funding of abortion. He’s abandoned all of that as his party has slid to be the pro-abortion party in America. So you start there, there’s never been a wider gulf between two political parties on an issue so important to the American people than there is today.
To your point within the Republican Party, there’s a debate over where we pursue the sanctity of life. I simply hold the view that it is not a state’s only issue. I know my former running mate recently announced that it’s the states will settle it. The Supreme Court did not say this is being sent to the states, they returned it to the American people. The American people elect governors and state legislators like here in Indiana, but they also elect Senators, Congressmen, and presidents. For my part… I think the time has come for a minimum national standard. I said so in my presidential campaign. One that would essentially say that at the point at which an unborn child could experience pain, we ought to restrict abortion. Except perhaps in a few limited cases: life of the mother, of course, rape, and incest. But for me, the idea of abdicating a role at the federal level is wrongheaded. What I just described to you, in terms of our minimum national standard is actually supported. Polls last year had about 70% of the American public [in] support [of] that. But let me also say, even if they didn’t, it’s still the right thing to do. And in the cause of life, it took us 50 years to overturn Roe v. Wade and begin to turn our country back to the sanctity of life. It may take us 50 years to restore the sanctity of life to the center of American law. But in that cause, we cannot relent.
I may not be around to see that day. That the right to life is the law of the land in every state in America. But I have hoped that all of you will. And as I said in that article in National Review, I think the destiny of our country is tied up in restoring the principle that every human life born and unborn is precious in the sight of God. And so I’ll continue to be a champion for that within our party.
Drew Thompson, editor of the W&L Spectator: What is your antidote to the self-hate that permeates fashionable attitudes toward American history, ultimately inhibiting patriotism?
Well, if you knew me well, you would know I’m actually just a frustrated American history teacher. I studied American history when I was your age, took a degree. There’s almost not a day that I’m not reading some biography, some history of those times, particularly the times around the American founding, but all of American history. When we founded the country, we were not a perfect union. That’s why the founders said “in order to form a more perfect union,” right? We understood the great sin of slavery, the difficulties that we face in the nation throughout our history. But I think more than any other nation on Earth, except maybe one, we’ve always aspired to what is right and what is true. And I think we do an enormous disservice to your generation and future generations of Americans when we try and erase history. Or as a history professor taught me be very careful about judging people in the past, by your standards and your understanding today. Be very careful. Because, he would always add, in 100 and 150 years, you would not appreciate people judging you by their morals, their understanding in our time versus theirs. So I just think we should embrace all that’s good about American history… The more I learn about American history, the more inspired I am and grateful I am to be an American.
Landon Epperson, Jefferson Independent (University of Virginia): What strategies do you think the US can employ to best deter Chinese aggression towards Taiwan? Do you see China as continuing to be our enemy or can we construct them as an economic rival to compete with in a more friendly manner?
China is the greatest strategic and economic threat the United States faces in the 21st century. And we cannot view it in isolation. It’s important to remember that one week ago, Vladimir Putin was in Beijing, where he and President Xi expressed their unlimited partnership with regard to Putin’s war of aggression in Eastern Europe, and there was even mention of China’s claim on Taiwan in the document that they signed. Throw in Iran, throw in North Korea, and you have what is a new Axis of Evil. It’s not an overstatement, Landon.
The pathway forward to determine that relationship between China and the free world, and most especially the United States of America, depends more on us than them. If we will continue to make the right investments in our national defense, if we will continue to make it clear to our treaty allies across the Asia Pacific that we are with them and [that] we’ll stand by our treaty commitments, that we’ll ensure freedom of navigation through places like the South China Sea, and that we continue to use access to this economy as a lever to demand that China ends their intellectual property theft and trade abuses that characterize the relationship between our countries over the last 20 years and call them out on human rights abuses, like the rounding up of Muslim leaders in western China; if we stay strong, if we stay clear, I believe China will respond accordingly.
If we show weakness, if we continue, as the Biden administration has done… when you factor in inflation, the Biden administration has been cutting defense spending since they came into office, leave aside all the woke nonsense they’ve introduced over at the Pentagon. But literally cutting our military spending at a time when China is engaged in a massive military buildup… This is the challenge of our times, and I honestly believe that the relationship between the United States will be determined by our strength or weakness. If we’re strong, we have the strongest military in the history of the world. We continue to make it stronger still, we continue to keep that advantage on land and sea and air and space…
The great Asian philosopher Sun Tzu, who wrote The Art of War, said that the most effective military strategy is to be so strong that no one would fight you. That’s what peace through strength means. And I honestly believe that the Chinese Communist Party, which is adversarial in its values and interest to the United States, only understands strength. On the flip side, I learned that there are more evangelical Christians in China today than there are members of the Chinese Communist Party. So the people of China are industrious. They have opened the way to some free-market economics over there in the past 25 years, and the people of China have responded.
We should never confuse our view of China with [that of] the people of China, who I think long for and deserve freedom as much as everyone in the world. With the Chinese Communist Party, that [sic] continues to pursue efforts to expand its influence not only across the Asia Pacific but propagates its communist values around the wider world, strength is the answer. I believe that we can chart a path toward a peaceful future and a successful relationship with China, but it’ll take strength.
Dalton Swenson, writer at the Dartmouth Review: Our president here at Dartmouth has drawn scrutiny for her decision to arrest 90 protesters, two of whom were professors at Dartmouth. How should campuses and students respond to protests [on the war in Gaza]?
I was in Israel the first week of this year. I went to a Kibbutz in southern Israel called Kfar Aza. I went to the field where the concert was attacked, and hundreds and hundreds of young people your age were brutalized and slaughtered. And when I saw the protest on campus, my heart sank. Maybe I just have more confidence in your generation than some people do. But there’s a part of me that finds it impossible to think that the majority of the young people swept up in these protests have any idea what they’re defending. Because what happened on October 7 was an invasion… [if] any one of your friends that [sic] seems to think that this is a moment to have some argument about Palestinian issues, you just need to say that’s not what this is. You need to look at the [footage] and then come and talk to me.
Because that day in that Kibbutz, I was standing on bloodstain carpeting, where there almost was not a spot on the walls in any of the little homes I walked into that wasn’t riddled with bullets. I heard of people being brutalized, wired together, set on fire. Men, women, and children of every age. it was the worst attack on the Jewish people since the Holocaust. It was an ISIS-level attack. At 90 different points along the fence line of Gaza, they came through with armed vehicles and heavily armed personnel with one objective and that was to kill as many Jews as possible and to cut the country in half.
What I learned when I was there was these Hamas terrorists had enough supplies to reach Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. But for the extraordinary courage of local law enforcement, IDF forces, and citizens in Israel, they were stopped in the south… We could never ask you to live next door to a serial killer. We can never ask your parents back home to just accept the fact that a mass murderer is living next door. And Israel has no choice but to go into Rafa they have to hunt down and destroy Hamas once and for all. And to understand what happened on October 7 is to understand that.
With regard to the way campuses have responded, I know some have responded well, I’m a great admirer of former Senator Ben Sasse, University of Florida. If any of you want to know what I think is the proper way to think about campus protests, I encourage you to read his editorial in the Wall Street Journal. I texted Ben as soon as I saw it.. he said it’s the difference between speech and action… that First Amendment right to stand and give voice to your views. It’s inconceivable to me but there may be some people that actually defend what happened that day. I just had to believe that the overwhelming majority of your peers who are out waving those Palestinian flags, and in some cases embracing what happened on October 7, it feels to me like they actually cannot actually know what happened in most cases because it was absolutely unspeakable.
I would tell you under our administration, when we unleashed our military to hunt down, destroy ISIS, and ultimately take down Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, I was in the Situation Room. I watched that takedown by our special forces on live satellite feed. No one questioned our need to do that. No one, no one wrung their hands about the force that we needed to apply to destroy ISIS. And my judgment is that we need to give Israel the same unbridled support. Not just because I believe Israel is our most cherished ally, as I do. I believe that America stands with Israel, and always should, and always will.
With regard to the universities and their responses to that, I would just say students have every right to let their voices be heard. They don’t have a right to break into buildings, they don’t have the right to be disruptive, they don’t have the right to intimidate or threaten people on campus. And there is no place for anti-semitism anywhere in the United States of America. And it should be denounced every time it rears its ugly head. So some universities have handled very poorly, some handled it well, and you don’t read about them in the paper…
But at the end of the day, I think we don’t have to choose between being a country that embraces freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and still have the capacity to be a country that respects the rights of every American—as the Bible says, to sit under their own vine and their own fig tree and no one would make them afraid. George Washington in a letter to a Hebrew congregation quoted that passage, and I’m told as a student of the American founding that that was George Washington’s favorite Bible verse that he thought much of the American Revolution could be explained in that. But he specifically said to this Hebrew congregation that he prayed that the people of the stock of Abraham would ever prosper in this nation. Then he quoted that verse, that I think should always be our aspiration… and that’s the environment you all deserve on your campuses. It’s the environment we deserve in this country, for every American, every race and creed. Those are things I’m going to continue to advocate all my life. So help me God.